Talk:Wanderer Tactic
O.K. well let's have a little debate over this strategy : Hehe. Well first off, let me start by saying I don't know who edited out your positives. I may not agree with them, but I wouldn't do that, and I don't approve of that edit-out. However, contrary to what I'm sure some people think of me and my guidelines, this is not a police state, people can do what they want (to a degree, obviously). I would recommend you retrieve them from history, and restore them, and if we keep having a tug of war over them, I'll lock down access to the article, and then when things cool down, we can unlock it. In the meantime, you can save your work on your desktop, or something. If that time comes, I mean. : These are a few notes I jotted down of concerns I have with your article. There are a few others, but I'm actually writing from work on my lunch break. : Shaun of The Dead ' : I think you misunderstood why I referenced them earlier. As fantastic as that movie is, it's a prime example of how NOT to treat zombies, if you value your life. It's a fun movie, so it doesn't get caught up in details or consistency, in this regard. So most zombie lovers agree that Shaun of the Dead gets zombies wrong for the most part, for comedic purposes. :'Placeholders : One shouldn't start a placeholder article. It's a guideline more than a rule, but it an be confusing to happen across an article that is little more than a first draft - readers demand more. If it's 90% done, that's fine. Other than that, please keep edits infrequent and large, and save drafts on your hard drive, or on a site like Google Docs. :Tone : Like the sign/alert says, wiki's are info sources. If you sound like you are trying to persuade people, you're not doing it right. Instead, choose soft words and phrases. For example "It is proported by some that...." or "Some evidence suggests...". Still, if your idea is too unpopular, it will be removed, and there's not alot anyone can do about that. we try to stay neutral as best as we can, but all wiki's are largely affected by popular opinion. :More Para breaks : When things are broken up, they are a little easier to read. You have put up a wall of text. See if you can break it down a bit. I recommend about every ten lines as a guideline, but try not to split up a group of ideas. :Renaming : If we can get the article to a standard we are all happy with, it will be renamed. Wanderer Tactic sounds like something we are trying to invent, copyright and make world faous. Too many tactics articles have this same problem. Also, what you suggest is more aptly described as a strategy. Tactics are like preset plays - a squad sweeping a building, a defense sacking the quarterback, using a trick to count your rounds as you fire. Strategies are broader, like the Zombieland rules. Eventually, I hope to enforce this on the tacics page, and split it to broad and narrow/strategies and tactics. Don't worry about anything in this paragraph though; I got it. I have to see how things develop first. :The Overall Premise : : Like I said before, I approve of the line of thought that says "sometimes, it is better to travel than to board yourself in". The Left 4 Dead games are all about that. Still, if there are (or will soon be) too many of them, or if there is a reasonable expectation that help will arrive, the wandering strategy will not work, which is why there is so much emphasis on these boards, and elsewhere, in building and holding down a fortification. : To say that one can just wade through the zombies, run-n-gunning, or bashing skulls in, is tenuous at best. In-universe, one cannot know how many zombies might be on a given path, or journey. Out of universe, we don't know how many zombies the average person, or troupe can handle. There is alot of debate or speculation about what kind of zombies we're talking about, exactly what has to be destroyed, how fast or strong the are. : But aside from all that is the issue of the masses. Zombieland was a great film, but clearly, this was on the tail end of their epidemic, because there were no signs that America now had hundreds of millions of zombies. There weren't enough bodies. There weren't enough totally blocked roads. My point is that the true horror of the zombie monster in most fiction is that they are freakin everywhere, and they aren't going anywhere unless they are headshot. They are like army ants. Yes, you can crush them if they are underfoot. But when they litter every square millimeter for hundreds of miles in all direction, you're just screwed. The biggest problem of the article is that it seems to claim that this is always hogwash. : Another problem is that there are many assumptions being made about how zombies track, and how easily diverted they are. Writing about diversions is a can of worms I'd recommend everyone steer clear of. Some say they follow any low noise, some say it's all human scent. Brooks' says it's generally pretty tough to give them another target once they lock on a human. He also says they eat anything that seems animal like, while Dawn of the Dead let that dog go through them unharmed. The point is that there is no consistency in the genre for reliable diversion bait, despite their unanimous stupidity. : You mention they are incapable of strategy, I don't totally disagree. But one could also say their sole strategy is to surround and overwhelm. We can all agree if one is following you, and you climb a tree, eventually, that tree will be surrounded on all sides, several times over. For a building it is more complicated (why would a zombie do check the south side of the building for an entrance, if he's following a target from the east?). But again, the consensus dictates that the zombie is dumb, but methodical, and he'll keep trying to find a way, and eventually he, or his zombie friends, will find a way in if nothing is boarded up well. : As mentioned before, the roads will be absolutely jam packed in most scenarios. Highways systems where not meant to evacuate large areas a incredibly long distance in a moment. This is an expensive idea to depict on screen with all of those extras and vehicles, but it has firm precedent in real life mass evacuation strategy. Cars, for most people, will be out, which means Mad Max won't be going far, unless he is already in the Outback, which is admittedly an unlikely spot for a traffic jam. Humor aside, the daunting task of walking for miles while fighting an unknown number of zombies as you look for supplies and places to sleep should cut right to the heart of the problem with the theory. : A totally nomadic exsistence is impractical for most of the world's population, even without zombies. Dwellings and shelters are used by all people in all parts of the world for good reasons. Even pre-historic hunter-gather tribes brought shelter, or new where to find it when they had to hole up for weather or rest. If they were severely outnumbered by zombies, I think they would roam less, and fortify an area. : I don't mean to make anyone feel unappreciated or deflated, so let me get more constructive. This could evolve into an article about journeys through infected territory. A large part of it would focus on evaluating beforehand if it is advisable, or even possible. Another large part would be preparation. For diversions, I would list a bunch that might work, but emphasize that no tactic could be considered reliable, because they behavior is erratic, and many have died putting their faith in all of them. The horse/livestock bit is good, and should stay. But if Brooks gives numerous examples saying that horses were eaten (and he did) then that's the story we go by. They have alot of advantages over cars, but they will not be left alone in this interpretation. Emphasis on short trips, travel during the day, and staying away from roads, and population centers would be great. : Thanks for reading my industrial sized critique. :) : -- Philodox 20:02, March 3, 2010 (UTC) Alright, you wrote a bunch of stuffp. I'll admit, I just breezed through a lot of it, but I think I got the jist of it. The idea behind the namadic strategy is to avoid large groups of zombies. So you would obviously avoid any areaa with massive amount ofs of zombies. I'm going to assume you've never been in the midwest, cause damn is that place empty. Even just going over in a plane you can see the massive expanses of wilderness not colonized by humans. Using basic zombie behavior, they are increadibly unlikely to just roam empty lands. Most exaples of zombies stay in cities, even if they're just standing around like idiots. It would be unlikely that you would run into a group of hundreds of thousands of zombies baking in the sun in the texas panhandle. Also, you're obviously not supposed to wade through zombies in the wanderer tactic. The idea is that you outrun the zombies that are following you. I wasn't expecting anyone to imagine some people on a covered wagon just plowing through zombies. The road issue is out of the question, obvioulsy. The point of it being called Oregon Trail is thast you use old trails. Like the Oregon trail. I gues I should have elaborated more on the Orewgon Trail idea. If what I said make sense I guess I could write another article all about the minor facets that seem obvious to me. They are most likely obvious to mew because I though of it. I can;t blame anyone for misintepretting something when I didn't fully explain it. And I'm pretty sure that Shaun of the Dead zombies are faithful recreations. Yes, that part where Shaun just waded trhough the zombies was dumb, and how did they open the cellar "floor door"(I have no idea what that thing is called)? But overall they seem very faithful. They move and react to most stimuli like most other classic zombies. And zombies don't really surround and swarm in my opinion. To me it's more like there are zombies at the door so a newly coming zombie couldn't bang on it. Eventually they start spreading out and there are some on the door and some start to mess around with the window. It's not like the zombie at the door says to the new one "hey, this doesn't work. Try the window" The first ones in the way so the next one tries somewhewre else. And yes, the way zombies track is open to extreme debate, but it is certainb that they can't see flattened grass and know they went in a certain direction. And given several stimuli, ohter than visual contact, can at least distract a zombie. Lets sayt, for the sake of argument, that your scent trail is spit into a fork and a zombie is following you. (Let's say that a second party broke off to make a second trail). A zombie will at least pause to "think" about which path to take. And when he finally "decides" whgich path to take, theres a fifty fifty chance he'll choose the wrong path. Oh, and the nomadic existance part implies you'll bring some shelter and supplies. The nomadic Indians and mongols all brought tents and food, they just didn't bring log cabins with them. COnsidering most of human history was nomadic existance, it's not impossible to revert to that. — ::::You said... ::I'm going to assume you've never been in the midwest, cause damn is that place empty. Even just going over in a plane you can see the massive expanses of wilderness not colonized by humans. Using basic zombie behavior, they are increadibly unlikely to just roam empty lands. Most exaples of zombies stay in cities, even if they're just standing around like idiots. :::I understand that there are alot of places in the US with sparse populations. Yes, we have alot of land. Now, more than ever, as this is the first year experts believe more than half of humanity lives in cities. But that is part of the problem - starting on the nomadic path for most means escaping the city, which is a daunting task. I'm not just talking the big metropolitan areas (of which the midwest has many). I think this exerpt from World War Z speaks volumes about how difficult any travel would be. ::::The swarm continued among the cars, literally eating its way up the stalled lines, all those poor bastards just trying to get away. And that’s what haunts me most about it, they weren’t headed anywhere. This was the I-80, a strip of highway between '''Lincoln and North Platte (Nebraska)'. Both places were heavily infested, as well as all those little towns in between. What did they think they were doing? Who organized this exodus? Did anyone? Did people see a line of cars and join them without asking? I tried to imagine what it must have been like, stuck bumper to bumper, crying kids, barking dog, knowing what was coming just a few miles back, and hoping, praying that someone up ahead knows where he’s going.'' :::Now, I know you are reluctant to simply accept Brooks' work as canon, despite the fact that is is the basis for two-thirds of the content on this wiki, and the major driver of search engine referalls. Still, I can work with that. But why would zombies just stay in the cities if they prey isn't? They could spread in pursuit, and use their moan to bring in the reinforcements. Also, the physics concept of dispersion would seem to apply here. When you pour a drop of milk into a still cup of water, the milk eventually spreads everywhere in the cup, roughly evenly. If you pour sand into a lump on a table, and introduce movement or vibration, the sand spreads to roughly even proportion. :::I'm not saying there is any proof, or solid right and wrong answers, but I think it is more far fetched to say that zombies will only wander in circles without a target, rather than they automatically, through random motion, tend to gradually spread out, increasing the chances one will find a target, and moan to the others. This is why I think, over time (and the more wilderness, the more it slows them) every terrain without major physical barriers will have at least a light coating of zombies everywhere, that wandered in from a city. ::I gues I should have elaborated more on the Orewgon Trail idea. If what I said make sense I guess I could write another article all about the minor facets that seem obvious to me. They are most likely obvious to mew because I though of it. ::::A common mistake. Always a good thing to keep in mind when writing on the internet. ::I can;t blame anyone for misintepretting something when I didn't fully explain it. And I'm pretty sure that Shaun of the Dead zombies are faithful recreations. Yes, that part where Shaun just waded trhough the zombies was dumb, and how did they open the cellar "floor door"(I have no idea what that thing is called)? But overall they seem very faithful. They move and react to most stimuli like most other classic zombies. And zombies don't really surround and swarm in my opinion. ::::You've contradicted yourself, as they did surround and swarm the Winchester. Sure, when they used the lift to get out, there were less, but that was because the inside of the Winchester, and the cellar, were being inundated, so most of them were in, or trying to get in. ::::Other commonly rejected inaccuracies of this great film include the part where his stepfather turns down the volume of the car radio, where his friend can enjoy a game of xbox after being turned into a zombie, and the premise that one could pretend to be zombie, and roam amongst them. ::''A zombie will at least pause to "think" about which path to take. And when he finally "decides" whgich path to take, theres a fifty fifty chance he'll choose the wrong path. '' ::::Yes, but he will still choose one, meaning he won't stay in the same place. Henceforth he, and every zombie who heard his moan will spread out, and also eventually take a guess. Repeated countless times, this means zombie dispersion. ::''Oh, and the nomadic existance part implies you'll bring some shelter and supplies. '' ::::I would include that, specifically. Cite or link to parts of equipment and transportation to save typing ::''Considering most of human history was nomadic existance, it's not impossible to revert to that. '' ::::I would very much disagree with this. If a place is named or has a structure, people depended on those ground to prosper, and would not quickly abandon it. The nomadism you described is practiced by Middle Eastern Tribes and Australian Aborigines. It wasn't even practiced all that much by American Indians. Sure, they migrated at times, but mostly to find a new place to settle. There's a reason there aren't more examples of great races of nomads - even without zombies, it is a hard and dangerous life. ::::On a side note, when I suggested paragraph breaks to make it easier to read, I didn't mean intentations at the start of the paragraph. I meant just separate ideas by hitting 'enter' to make blank lines, so there's no wall of text. :::: Also, use the 4 squigglies. :) ~ -- Philodox 17:53, March 5, 2010 (UTC) response alright. Firstly you are mistaken when you speak of "dispersion". The entering of a smaller quantity of liquid into a larger volume and the balance created is called equilibrium. Equilibrium applies to molecular structures that behave uniformly. Zombies have behavior and that brings up the factor of variables. Zombies shouldn't just spread out into mostly empty space. They follow humans, animals, sounds; it all depends on what you take as canon. Seeing as how these areas I am speaking of are mostly empty, it would make no sense for them to just disperse into empty space. Besides, the idea is to outrun the zombies, not totally evade them. I've been thinking more about how the Oregon Trail should work. The way I imagine it would be moving several hours then taking short breaks of an hour or so. A human can eventually become accustomed to such a strange sleeping schedule(in case you've never heard about the Uberman sleep schedule, look it up). It would'nt be impossible for animals to become accustomed to such a schedule. The main point is to get to a safe zone, so no you are not expected to survive forever. You are meant to outpace the zombies while other parties would go hunt, scavenge, etc. You mention again that roads are packed, you are not supposed to use roads. I never said to be wary of roads so its my fault. Alright, I feel like wrapping this up. I still believe that my idea could work for a conceivable amount of time, but I hampered myself by not putting enough thought or preperation into the article. To be honest, the Oregon Trail idea came about while I was writting the article. What is in there is the very first notes of what I thought of. My basis is heavily hampered just by the fact that I did not elaborate on many details. I left way too much to the readers own imaginations so I can't blame anyone for seeing it differently. I think you should just scrap the article and I'll try to make a new article devoted entirely to the Oregon Trail idea. I really like it and think it has potential. I'll keep the technical things in mind when writing it and will try to have it mostly done before I upload anything. I've never written any wiki articles before so I'm pretty much learning as I go. My first thing here was the mall edit then the zombie thing and now this. If you're scared of offending me by editing my articles, I won't. I'm not going to stop everything I do here just because some guy thought he could help. If at any point I have come off as scorned or fuck it. Im tired of talkin all fancy. Im not gonna get all pissed if you wanna change stuff. Im not all pompous or anything. I dont mind help of course. and feel free to fix any problems like spacing or crap like that. o and modern humans have been around like 500000 years, the neolithic revolution (depending on your source) happened between 4 and 10 thousand years ago. so yea, shits been nomadic for way more time than pussies in down comforters. i dont feel like signing in, but yea its me. there shouldnt be as many typos as before, no booze today. 07:39, March 6, 2010 (UTC)